Miles to go...

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Ramblings by Jaya Jha

Friday, February 25, 2005

To write or not to write

This is coming after a lot of deliberation. I tried to get myself to believe that I do not want to write it, that I want to ignore the whole things, but I could not. It was not getting out of my mind. So, it had to be put down somewhere. After all the thinking, I decided to put in my blog instead of putting as comment to any of the original posts for reasons I would not waste time in listing here. And I do not intend to give any references, so I would reproduce the relevant posts and comments from the two blogs from where the ‘inspiration’ for this post of mine comes. Of course, in this connected world of blogs, if you want to trace, it would not be difficult. But since my interest is not with the individuals, I do not give references. And no, not giving references is not related to whether or not people involved will like or dislike it. I have no reasons to believe either way. In fact since it is all in the public domain, there should not be a reason for disliking. Still, it’s just my choice that I do not want to give it. A symbolic exercise more than anything else.

From the past experience I know what kind of risk I am running with respect to comments, but now I have a better way to handle it should something undesirable happen!

While surfing the web I came across this posting in a blog –

--

Man Vs Woman
Question : What is the differnece between man and woman ?
Answer : A woman wants all her desires to be filled by one man while the man wants all women to fill his one desire.
--

Before proceeding, let me tell you that I find this stereotyping as much idiotic as certain things succeeding this, which I am going to discuss about.

A comment on this post went like this -

--

Well, I dont like the language because it indicates poorly in favour of one. But the point is not incorrect.

Men chase beauty and beauty is eternal, it can never exist in one mortal human. Men chase the beauty of eternal character. No woman has it. They only have partial beauty.

But women are fixed. Their desires are worldly and practical. But not eternal. Their desires are materialistic and can be fulfilled by any man.

This is why, its not till the women learn to set the men free, and till the men learn that they need not sit, but to travel and explore more, that this world would become a perfect place to live a lifetime.

But that would never happen. People would keep raising questions and they'll never get their answers.

--

A succeeding comment asked if he really was serious about women being more materialistic. To this the reply came in affirmative. And as an explanation a reference was given to a blog-post of his, which I shall reproduce here –

--

Have you listened to this song? -

Female : Chhod Do Aanchal Zamana Kya Kahega? -2
Male : In Adaon ka Zamana bhi hai Deewana, Deewana Kya Kahega?

These two lines say more than what they sound to be conveying. You need to look beyond the surface. Thats the truth of all our relationships. This song is beautifully repsentative of the male/female tendencies and behaviours in its purest sense. Thats the kind of dual Mr. GOD must have imagined in his vision of the lovely world he was creating.

What I intend to point out about these duals here, is the respective roles a man and a woman are supposed to play in it. We are a part of the play in which, if you forget you role, you are certainly going to make a mess of the drama. Let me admit that, what I am going to say here is not an output of my own thoughts. I have been enriched by literature - mostly indian - to have come to this conclusion. This specific point has been taken by a wonderful book, 'Baan-Bhatt Ki Atmkatha'.

There are ways of looking at the world. There is only one truth of this universe. That truth is eternal and named as God. But there are primarily two elements of this universe - male and female. This is why we have a challenge on our hands to keep the balance between these elements and still keep ourselves in line with our endless journey towards the eternal truth. Now you can see why Hesse said - "Any life expands and flowers only through division and contradiction. What are reasons and sobriety without the knowledge of intoxication? What is sensuality without death standing behind it? What is love wihtout the eternal mortal enmity of the sexes?"

But male and female elements do not necessarily repsent the male and female human species. So, a better way to categorize the elements is - Beauty & Strength; Shiv & Shakti. Essentially, we keep ourselves in line with the ways of the world only when we do justice to our respective configurations of male/female elements. If we change the configurations, we commit a crime. Role-reversal is a crime and hence, causes corruption in all of us. It takes us away from the truth. It causes a disturbance in the setup of this universe, which was so sweetly visualised by the creator. Keep the song in your mind!

What I am going to say here is about the male and female elements. It can not be easily super-imposed on us as we have undergone a lot of corruption, a lot of role-reversal and a lot of confusion has ruined us. But the essential elements of the universe can not be negated. They stand stronger than us, however stupidly we try to defy them and laught them off!

The truth of men and women is different. They complement each other. They are not equal. They are not meant to be equal. If they try to compete, they corrupt the system - Man is an artist, Woman is practical. Man is free, woman bound. Man is doubtless, woman double-minded. Man is alone, woman intoxicated. Man is material-free, woman materialistic.

Woman is strength-incarnate. Man worships beauty. Strength has a seductive beauty in it. Restraint is beauty. Self-control is pleasure; Boundations are sweet. Else, life is a burden. Naked reality is wicked. Control is the truth.

Man chases this seductive control. He wants to break it. Love mingles the two elements. With love, the complementary elements play in unison and reach another level. At that level, woman makes sacrifices. She tortures herself and spreads pleasure. She quenches man's thirst for beauty and completes him. She nourishes the artist inside him. But she keeps her strength. She is the soul of Nature.

This is why both the elements have a crucial role to play in this drama. If you try to defy this rule and handle it methodically, its even worse. Methodical is never eternal. It will never have the virtue of longevity. Methodical is unstable. Whichever organisation is hungry, methodical and lacking in female-element, can never bring pleasure.

And finally, let me say this - Woman is an aberration. She is an obstruction. But she is also strength. Without her strength, any venture is futile, weak and meaningless. So all such ventures deviate or collapse when a lady wants otherwise. All such ventures are meant to create turbulence. They can never bring pleasure, the serene and calm pleasure our souls need.

I am ending this post right here to leave some scope for soul-searching and questions and answers. But I am going to continue on this again. The theme will be different the next time. A hint at that wouldn't be too bad I guess - 'Woman is Strength. Her success is in trapping a man in her beauty. But her substantiation is in setting him free.'
--

I could not resist writing the following comment, which didn’t get posted there. For reasons, as I said, shall not be recounted. What I wrote in the comment is what I am reproducing here. The language is, of course, as if the it is being written as a response to the above post in that blog:

--

Had to come to this post because of the reference you left somewhere else for substantiating your comment on the nature of men vs. that of women.

And what surprises me is how have you started with the role of two elements called "male" and "female" and in another moment, without any scruples whatsoever, have imposed it on the biological sex and sociological gender!!

"Men chase beauty and beauty is eternal, it can never exist in one mortal human. Men chase the beauty of eternal character. No woman has it. They only have partial beauty.

But women are fixed. Their desires are worldly and practical. But not eternal. Their desires are materialistic and can be fulfilled by any man.

This is why, its not till the women learn to set the men free, and till the men learn that they need not sit, but to travel and explore more, that this world would become a perfect place to live a lifetime."

is what you wrote at the blog mentioned above.

This is absolutely disgusting. What do you know of women really? You have framed a world around you which suits your convenience and pronounce that to be the way the world is supposed to be! What is it that you have described in the above comment? The utterly chauvinistic, derogatory view of women, which further celebrates that thoughtlessness of men. No sir! My desires can not be fulfilled by *any* men. My desires are no more materialistic than yours are. And I have as much a need and urge towards freedom as you have. All of these might even be more than you in my case because of my personality! And if these are less is some of my or your sex, it is again because of individual personalities, and not because of their sex!

Talk of history and literature. Yes, yes. They will favour your world-view. Because all those historians and writers (yeah, even the exceptional women amongst them) are the children of the same society, which has held this convenient, distorted world-view for millions of years now.

And if you talk of evidence in the difference of nature of women and men, in general, and pronounce any deviations as ‘exceptions’ then this is what I have to say. It is the effect of nurturance and not of nature. And it is the effect of those millions of years of nurturance. Give me half as many years with a different nurturance pattern and I will give you the evidence contrary to the world-view you hold!

A physical inequality is the reason this particular nurturance pattern has come into the world, because before civilization, physical strength was what mattered. With civilization, mind started mattering, but the nurturance pattern continued and so did the respective ‘roles’.

You will say I am committing a crime of ‘role-reversal’. I say you are committing the crime of using fantastic principles and manipulative power of language and words to support a distorted, derogatory and exploitative world-view.

And if it’s a question of framing theories, I can frame one too. Men need many women not because their desires are eternal, but precisely because their desires are excessively materialistic. One who has some eternal objective will be patient, will wait and will test! He would not take and taste and use anything and everything that comes his way. Vivekananda asked several people “Have you seen God?” before choosing his Guru.

Yes, I can frame theories too, even if doing that means a role reversal!

But I would refrain from endorsing such theories. Because I do not want to commit the same crime of stereotyping by stereotyping men, as you have done with women. I do hope there are better men in the world than the kind you have described so beautifully, otherwise the world is soon up for some real revenge from those exploited and dictated and manipulated. Women are not by nature what you have described. What you have described is what you would want women to be for the kind of men you have described. And I do believe that not all men would like to be described in the way you have done them. If they do, may God help them!

Do not justify by saying that you were talking of ‘male’ and ‘female’ elements. Because you were not. You only took an initial shelter under that principle.

Categories:

20 Comments:

  • At Fri Feb 25, 07:46:00 PM 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    It’s really disgusting!! I know that a few men do think this way, but never let their thoughts out. But this is truly ludicrous and derogatory- thinking in such perverted and tainted manner and also putting ‘his’ views in public-domain. Moreover, and above all he tried to justify them in a very ridiculous, insulting and offensive way. He just said what he wanted in reality. Just that he did not incarcerate all this to himself and made the remark as in general.

    Such male-chauvinism (omnipresent?) is unappealing. This is a remarkable example of it. I never really appreciate it when people make differences based on gender- the stronger and the weaker sex!!! What is so strong about them? Oh, please, so so strong that they give in easily to desires. Such a strong character of the stronger sex! Who evaluates people based on their physical strength nowadays? (Leave alone some exceptions) It is the mental strength that matters. Moreover, it’s the strong character that you need to place yourself ahead of others- men or women alike.

    It is nothing but a simulation of his perverted mind. If only you could provide me with this **’s blog address...
    (I apologize for any abusive remarks but could not resist myself from doing so and moreover, I would want myself to say all this and more to him).

     
  • At Fri Feb 25, 08:03:00 PM 2005, Blogger Jaya said…

    Problem unfortunately is not as simple as men vs. women. I wonder is there is some "male-chauvinism" really. Its chauvinism, in general. And, unfortunate, as it is, women are no less a cotributor to this. The original post, for example, is from a girl's blog. What made her endorse such 'stereotyping' post! And assuming that it was a 'light' post (though I personally have my reservations about stereotyping even for the sake of joke), probably a clarification was desired for after such a comment was posted there. Nothing like that was there. No attepmts at either any clarification on her post, or at criticizing the comment received! It's all so much messed up! Don't know what to say and think and do!

    Whom to blame and whom to correct?

     
  • At Sat Feb 26, 08:26:00 AM 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Bloggers:Commenting is equally difficult on the topic. I don’t want to stereotype anyone or hurt anyone. But can show you a movie clip from real life:

    “After returning from office, he was working on computer in his room. In the mean time Ma called him. Ma was busy with so many reports regarding the income and expenditure of her school. That day her mother and his sister were on vrata too. Vrata is a religious fasting, but he never asked them that why they did it. Anyway Ma told him to prepare ‘sabudana’ for them. He prepared it, cooled it down and served them. Then he prepared bhujia for him and his papa. Papa was reading then and he had already cooked in morning. Next thing was baking rotis. Now he started baking rotis and all perfectly round. They were so round that, they were giving an imagination of a Feng-Shui symbol of round picture with two interwoven complementary shapes inside it. Then he started to interpret that symbol.

    *** The End ***

     
  • At Sat Feb 26, 12:57:00 PM 2005, Blogger Jaya said…

    There has not been any anonymity anywhere. It's me who has decided to not write names. A digression, but I thought needed clarification.

     
  • At Sat Feb 26, 10:49:00 PM 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Frankly speaking, I have no words to put in! At first it was disgusting but now I’m literally shocked. Thank god, I haven’t read your reply (to my comment) yesterday. Otherwise, it would have been very difficult for me to digest it. I always had this complaint against many women, i.e., being conformists and also not willing to get out of their rigid frames which, in most cases are framed by men who have some kind of an influence over them.

    Really Jaya, it feels so bad that a woman said all that. Why blame men then, when women are equally responsible for the incessant growth of these conventional ideas, which in fact make no sense to me. I struggle for this cause almost everyday and everywhere. And, you know what I realized? It is very difficult to change conformists because they have such a rigid frame built around themselves that even if you succeed in breaking it, your victory will not last long. They will quickly build a better one.

    What you said is right. Nothing can ever be done to such people. May god bless them and show them some light!

     
  • At Sat Feb 26, 10:59:00 PM 2005, Blogger Jaya said…

    Hey no! All this was not by a womnen. I am sorry - it got conveyed wrong. The original post was by a girl i.e. following one -

    "Man Vs Woman
    Question : What is the differnece between man and woman ?
    Answer : A woman wants all her desires to be filled by one man while the man wants all women to fill his one desire."

    The comment and the other post I mentioned was from a guy.

    However, what I was conveying that the girl's post was also a stereotype, putting men in a bad light. This is not fair either. If that is done by women, it will be very difficult to break the other stereotype either. What I was further disgusted about was that after that comment on her blog, she did not attempt to say anything to refute it. As if she accepted all that the guy had to say.

     
  • At Sun Feb 27, 01:13:00 PM 2005, Blogger Jaya said…

    Sure, everyone is free to have his/her own opinion and his/her own choices. But it does not mean one would start pronouncing world order for others. That is not acceptable, particularly when it insults someone. If there is a particular idea of men/women in some person's mind he/she is free to choose one like that himself/herself. But to say that everyone should be (or even more ridiculouly 'everyone is') like that!! Excuse me?? I can't help but protest.

    (Now this argument of freedom of opinion and hence choise is not a general statement to be applied blindly to all circumstances. Somebody might stretch it to say that someone might have an opinion that killing is no crime. Does that mean he/she is free to kill anyone? The argument is a stretch at best. Logic is given in a particular context, and must be applied there. But that was kind of a diversion.)

    Coming back to the issue. It is as simple as this. If your ideal partner is a woman with materialistic desires, that can be filled by anyone and who would set you free for your divine, eternal purposes (whatever those are), sure! Go ahead, find one for yourself. Nobody claims that such woman are not there. But that does not give one a right to say that "all woman are" and posibly "must be" materialistic. And men are just the opposite. You bet, if I want to find a materialistic, submissive man for myself, I shall be able to locate one (or many!)

     
  • At Sun Feb 27, 07:39:00 PM 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    It matters not whether you win or lose; what matters is whether I win or lose.

    - Darrin Weinberg

     
  • At Sun Feb 27, 07:51:00 PM 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    The previous comment was from me. The last radio button got clicked.
    Anyway to add,this type of discussions are surely traffic making but at last no net result. But it's quiet painful if we think this to the family , social or organisational level. The bigger magnets always pull lighter ones,be it Man or Woman,it's the fact. But at the same time there are quite a few people who are enough powerful to create Tsunami on peaceful beaches, disrupting the beautiful social setup.

     
  • At Sun Feb 27, 09:11:00 PM 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Look around you, guys and gals! sterotyping exists so much that it disgust me and others who think like me. The saas-bahu serial where the women are all scheming, good-for-nothing, creator of all problems, evils and the men are innocent, the wah-sunil-babu ad or the more recent jeevansaathi.com ad (where the wife treates the husband like a dog) or your own home! Or take the case of the sleazy music videos that are getting created in the name of "liberation" (Frankly, they are as liberated, if not worse, as the ekta kapoor serials).
    I fail to understand why people express surprise when they are pointed out these instances when they do nothing to get rid of them. My motto is, start at home! Do something. Do not be silent!

     
  • At Sun Feb 27, 09:23:00 PM 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    You know, one of toughest questions that feminist face is the fact that they are opposed by a lot of women. Even today, in this so called "liberated" world, feminism is a taboo in most homes and mothers particularly make sure that their daughters saty from those "good-for-nothing", "men-hating" women as they want their want their daughters to primarily get married and make babies! So, they face a lot of opposition from the very women they seek to liberate. The argument that feminists face is that the women they seek to liberate do not want to be liberated!!! Plus, this stereotype of feminists as "male-bashing" lesbians has been perpetuated by men, who control the sources of information and thus are more influential than anybody else. *deep sigh*
    need I say more that this is a very sad state of affairs. my motto is do something, anything!

     
  • At Sun Feb 27, 09:24:00 PM 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    You know, one of toughest questions that feminist face is the fact that they are opposed by a lot of women. Even today, in this so called "liberated" world, feminism is a taboo in most homes and mothers particularly make sure that their daughters saty from those "good-for-nothing", "men-hating" women as they want their want their daughters to primarily get married and make babies! So, they face a lot of opposition from the very women they seek to liberate. The argument that feminists face is that the women they seek to liberate do not want to be liberated!!! Plus, this stereotype of feminists as "male-bashing" lesbians has been perpetuated by men, who control the sources of information and thus are more influential than anybody else. *deep sigh*
    need I say more that this is a very sad state of affairs. my motto is do something, anything!

     
  • At Mon Feb 28, 02:30:00 PM 2005, Blogger Vinay Khaitan said…

    Some good feminists are here. male/female both. Well, I am neither fond of male chauvinism nor feminism. Better be rational than emotional on isssues. I have heard so many times...male and female are equal! I never knew, on what ground?
    As psychology says and biological sciences proved, women have their emotional activity more than men. So it is supposed that they are more influenced by emotion in decisions than men. Well our experiences say the same(unless you are biased towards feminism, which most of the person seems here).
    The language adaptability, as psychology says, is better in women than men.
    So, on some issues, women are better, On some, men are better. Where is the equality?
    Male and female attitude towards each other is also different. everyone has seen that. Remember the article "men will be men" ?
    I can go on and on. In fact, most of us has seen the reality.
    Many of the times I have heard being(remaining) as house wife in derogatory sense(well one post said so here too). I tried to find one logic why working outside is better and working inside is worse? My father has work schedule of 9:00AM-9:00PM. I dont get how, whatever they do is better than what my mother does?
    The important for a women is to have good education, understanding of the world etc, which would be helpful for her in life and also for family.Job is not necessary. And the reason for being house-wife is in no way inferiority in intelligence(emotional influences has nothing to do with intelligence).
    I hope, Ms. Indu would not say my mail as "Male chauvinism".

     
  • At Mon Feb 28, 02:50:00 PM 2005, Blogger Jaya said…

    [begin satire]Oh, it's okay Vinay; no there is no reason to believe that working outside is better than working inside. Chalo, let me assume that working inside is better in fact. Then I do not want to condemn men to do all the bad jobs of the world you see. Let's share the good as well as bad jobs. [/end satire]

    (That I have put the above in those tags of satire does not mean that I am demeaning the importance of house-work. No! Just that certain things get conveyed best through satire.)

    Regarding the evidence, I think I will have to repeat myself -

    "Give me half as many years with a different nurturance pattern and I will give you the evidence contrary to the world-view you hold!"

    You have been overtly humble and have not listed anything at which men are *better*. So, I have to cook up something to make this argument complete. If Maths could be an example, I am afraid I am better at it than many of them! And I have seen many men better than me at 'language adaptability'!

     
  • At Mon Feb 28, 03:24:00 PM 2005, Blogger Vinay Khaitan said…

    Heh, I didn't say that working outside is inferior. :-)
    I forgot to write the reply to anticipated arguement:- "give me..." . This too I have heard many times, really. Ask any feminist, you would find them immediately. Such types of arguments are by definition unfalsifiable!
    Look at what I said. It is tested biologically and psychologically. They dont go like our folk psychology.About Language adaptation, I knew from psychology classes. That's what resolved some of my strange experiences too.
    it's not about me and you, its on average seen. there are always deviations from average. If you see a common graph of performance of students, there are as many students on averge as on both sides of the peak. But average mark marks the intellectual level of that class.

    BTW, I said, intellectual level has nothing to do with emotional influence. So your math example doesn't suffice :)
    But I do have feeling that, at analytical subjects, men are better. And at subjects related to arts(subjective things) women are better.

    Biasing would never let you see the correct picture. And you know that you are too much influenced with feminist ideas.

     
  • At Mon Feb 28, 03:47:00 PM 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    wow! u never stop amazing me Jaya.

    I am not commenting on this topic as it actually stands on a very slippery slope. But just a simple point (i read it in a book that claims these remarks were made by Mahatma Gandhi)

    The jist of it:
    It is very easy to give out a remark that seggregates the people around you into groups, but very hard to restraint these remarks. But the noble soul would never allows these remarks to come to his minds. Not justifing anyone but this argument is a two sided sword, no matter which end you are in you are bound to bleed.

    -Ashish Mishra
    www.livejournal.com/asmishra

     
  • At Mon Feb 28, 04:29:00 PM 2005, Blogger Jaya said…

    Yes! The dear old Psychology Vinay. It can only show you what is there. When has 'average' psychology been able to defy the nurture factor? Evidences are a product of 'what has been'. They do not prove 'what could have been'. And what has been is manipulative. So, 'what is there' is a manipulated outcome. It does not matter if you have heard it many a times. 'Really' it does not matter. And does not matter if any feminist says the same thing. The fact still stands there. Your listening to it hundred times hardly changes its characteristics.

    Listen, I have made this point earlier. Everyone is free to have his/her choice. If your choice of a woman is a house-wife, sure! You go for that. Do not make that a normative world order. You have no right to do that. Because you normative world order questions my individual abilities and choices.

    Thank you.

     
  • At Mon Feb 28, 04:37:00 PM 2005, Blogger Jaya said…

    Ashish: There is no way I can say that what you have said does not make sense. It makes a lot of sense. And so long as I can do that, I shall really prefer to do that, instead of caring for what the world says or does. Problem is my existence, my life, my behaviour, my work is not independent of people around me. I am dependent on my context for several things, like every one else. Human are social creatures, aren't they? And if this context is biased, and to top that the biases are legitimized, I just can not afford to ignore them.

    Further even to the extent it is possible to not let the remarks come one's mind, the ability to do so depends on the strength of the individual. Not everyone can be super-humanly strong. And in this particular case that is being discussed, if a woman is not super-humanly strong, she can not ignore the context. It will affect her performance. Yet, it does not take away her right to an unbiased environment. At least as unbiased as her male counterparts have (lest the arument of 'world not being perfect' comes up!).

     
  • At Wed Mar 02, 11:01:00 AM 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Hats off :)

    Ashish

    PS: r u a tauran/leo?

     
  • At Fri Mar 04, 01:05:00 PM 2005, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Femiism, Chauvinism..I would give the world to make these terms extinct. Its a very individual choice. You, me and almost all of us would have seen the worst of men and worst of women around us. I have seen Jaya, who as she rightly says is great at maths and a li'l weaker at language adaptability. I know that I cant read maps for a dime but can play perfectly with words. So, you see the norms are not rigid too. There might have been a mould but not all of the pieces conform to it. I personally believe, the concept of stereotyping is a charade as none of us are same. Not even two women; forget men and women. As people mature, they must learn to look over and above moulds, to accept that anomalies are numerous in number. People who live by preset watertight compartments, would fail to respect humanity and the power of uniqueness in general. One of the comments about stereotyping "feminists" as lesbian was really amusing. Friend, in this world, we dont need chauvinists or feminists becuase destinies would have to be crafted by individuals alone. The blogpost which is the centre of the discusssion is not an alarm bell for women of the world to unite and reveal the power of feminism to the world. It is a sad comment of someone who has failed to recognize the power of the truth that each human being is unique and a masterpiece in itself. That and that alone is the rule of the allmighty.

     

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